Sunday

Conversation, IRL

In conversation this morning with son and husband, adoption came up, as it has a tendency to do.

It was a result of me asking my husband if I'd told him before that my mom had recently told me I was kept in the hospital for a month or so prior to them taking me home (I had to look back in my blog to this post in order to confirm the month as I'd said 6 months this morning...wow, proof positive of how as story gets embellished) and how it doesn't appear to have affected me. I did confirm that "I seem unaffected, don't I?".

The discussion moved all over the place from there.

We covered how a psychology text book conveys the notion that a child isn't so much affected by being adopted but rather by who they are adopted to, that it's so different to be adopted by a family of another race in that it's much more difficult to escape the fact that one is adopted unless the adopted person is not with their family, or, as my son pointed out, they're at home with only their family.

We talked about the notion that adopted people are more likely to give a child up for adoption to validate their experience, to make it ok, a notion I cannot entertain in application to myself (it was always in my thoughts to NOT ever do this because my biological mother did), but understand it in the way that it's a fact that human beings do perpetuate cycles and behaviors that logically they shouldn't/wouldn't be as likely to perpetuate as someone else, as they are aware of how it feels.

We discussed how although some of the online discussion seems just plain "stupid" (my son's word) that much of it is necessary to attempt to educate and how although I think it's fantastic and helpful it always sticks in my head that people who could quite likely do a perfectly acceptable job of parenting a child they've adopted without all the extra information have the potential to become "afraid" of their child, and this will do exactly the opposite of what all the educating is (hopefully) meant to be doing. How an attempt to "help" prospective adoptive parents be better parents unintentionally could possibly do just what's trying to curb.

We talked about a supposed group of women who are talking about adopting out children intentionally with the purpose of supplying childless parents with a gift of a child, something to which my husband reacted in disbelief comparing the act to giving someone a golf club if they didn't have one of their own, that it couldn't be that simple, it wouldn't be normal. We talked about how this scenario was entirely different than a woman who finds herself pregnant with a child she doesn't want, that this scenario certainly does exist.

I'm off to a family gathering today where I'll likely see a baby, newly adopted by a cousin, and another cousin who, as he ages, is the spitting image of my beloved dad who I miss especially at these family events.

I'm looking forward to it all. I love family shit.

11 comments:

  1. :) I'm not sure if your last line is serious or not, but I hope the family gathering went well.

    This entire conversation was amazing, but this (snipped for length) hit home for me: "how although I think it's fantastic and helpful ... this will do exactly the opposite of what all the educating is (hopefully) meant to be doing"

    This has certainly happened to me. The problem is that no matter the issue, nothing in adoption is black and white, everything has the potential to create confusion. Plus, when you peel back one layer, there's always another, always another issue to address.

    I feel that I should address them all, but sometimes the peeling leaves me with more information than I can process, but without clarity on any of it.

    *sigh* I guess it is what it is.

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  2. I snipped the conversation for length as well Margie, it evolved to racism ..umm...mental health...strange fetishes (yes, with my son).

    I was actually thinking about my last line and how it could be taken as sarcastic haha. It wasn't, I do love family shit and it was nice to see my cousins, and even a few aunts who are still alive.

    Side note, as I was mentioning to my husband, coupled with the promise of it not becoming another adoption discussion, that although I did NOT know the majority of the people there, out of the people I did know (and am related to) 4 of us are adopted, ages ranging from mine, 47 down to 16 months.

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  3. Campbell, out of curiousity, because while I respect that you are happy with your life, I need to ask this. Do you not see the theme that runs through your life?

    You have posted many times about how you are good with being adopted, and coupled it with a negative about your first mother or statements regarding your first mother's failure to respond.

    You talk about adoption enough at home that you are having to promise your spouse that it won't become an adoption conversation. (I have had that same promise made by the way)

    These are the things that make me wonder exactly how you do feel and whether or not you simply are so deeply angry or sad about it, that you buried it and pretend that the smelly spot in the yard is not yours.

    I believe you, and yet, well, you know it is difficult to believe as well.

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  4. Hmm, not sure where I've said much negative about my biological mother Lori. I have discussed, mainly with you I think, her not responding to me. Many people write about their experience of searching.

    As far as promising not to have another adoption discussion well, that's primarily because we'd discussed it at length earlier that morning. And to be honest, it's just not as interesting to discuss to some people as it is to me.

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  5. Interesting conversation....my daughter is definitely affected by adoption. There are so many layers to her story I never know if she is affected more by losing her first mother, spending 15 months in a Russian orphanage (a fate no child should have to endure), or living with people who love her but are not related to her. I agree with what you said, some of the stuff I read does make me afraid and leaves me wondering what the hell I got myself into (and also wondering if maybe she would have been better off in that orphanage - at least she would be among other Russians speaking her own language and living in her own country). However, when I turn of the computer, she is just my daughter and I love her.

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  6. "We talked about how this scenario was entirely different than a woman who finds herself pregnant with a child she doesn't want, that this scenario certainly does exist."

    Do you ever talk about the scenario where the woman gets pregnant with an UNwanted child who *becomes* wanted but is being pressured to relinquish?

    Do you ever talk about the scenario where the woman accidentally gets pregnant but decides she will parent her child from the get-go?

    I've always noticed - not specifically talking about your blog, actually - that often times the conversation will go to "But what if the woman DOESN'T want her child?"

    Not saying it's not possible (I know a relative who's birthed three children and she's NEVER wanted to be a mother and DOESN'T take care of her kids and the parental instinct is NON-EXISTENT), and I'm certainly well aware that it exists. But I think there's something unnatural about it.

    Not unnatural in that "I don't want to be a mom" because not everyone does, but unnatural in that she births a child and doesn't end up giving a damn about it - then proceeds to get pregnant again and repeat this scenario.

    I'm just wondering why this line "what if she doesn't want the child or doesn't love it" brings across so much skepticism or doubt even before she's become a parent and why this is always brought up in adoption conversations as IF it is "the norm", or if even if it's "the norm", why it's brought up as if it should be perfectly normal because, as you yourself have rightly noted, there are a lot of people who shouldn't be parents.

    Hm, I suppose what I am asking is: Is it more important to acknowledge that a mother should love/want her child, or is it more important to emphasize that a mother "shouldn't have to love/want her child just because she birthed it, and if so - is that normal?

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  7. "We talked about a supposed group of women who are talking about adopting out children intentionally with the purpose of supplying childless parents with a gift of a child"

    ... whoa, this makes me angry.

    On another note, I thought I should let you know that I think if a woman truly does not want her child and does not take care of him/her, then by biology's definition she is a mother, but as for the parenting role, she does not "deserve" the title.

    Just so you know. (I'm not completely "blinded" by my whole "there is a natural connection between mother & child that should never be broken!" spiel, haha.)

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  8. "Do you ever talk about the scenario where the woman gets pregnant with an UNwanted child who *becomes* wanted but is being pressured to relinquish?"

    Absolutely Mei Ling, with my son or anyone else who gets talking about adoption with me. It's really one of the most horrific negatives of adoption, isn't it?

    "Do you ever talk about the scenario where the woman accidentally gets pregnant but decides she will parent her child from the get-go?"

    Yes, this in fact was one of the things we talked about that day and it was discussed in context of myself and of my son, if that were to have happened to me or if it were to happen to his girlfriend.

    I think I get part of what you're saying with regards to a woman not wanting a baby she's pregnant with, and how she or anyone else knows for sure she doesn't want it before she actually gives birth and becomes a parent. That the act of giving birth and then holding and seeing her child could change everything. If this is what you're saying I completely agree that's possible, maybe even probable. Loving a baby or child doesn't necessarily mean though that she feels she's able to raise it. Hey, how many times have I read "love is not enough".

    With regard to your last question, here's what I think is normal, or the norm.

    I think it's more the norm that a woman who doesn't want her baby keeps it rather than give it up for adoption.

    I think it's likely more the norm that a woman who is pregnant and doesn't want to be has a change of heart after she has the baby and falls in love with it and all is well.

    Having said all that, I think it's unrealistic to expect that a woman WILL love/want a child just because she birthed it.

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  9. Sorry Campbell, I know I'm really picking your brain here. But it is always so intriguing how people will argue for one perspective in the case of adoption, and then argue *against* that same idea in the same scenario where adoption didn't happen at all! :P

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  10. "Having said all that, I think it's unrealistic to expect that a woman WILL love/want a child just because she birthed it."

    If a woman does not feel a bond with her child "just because" she birthed it, do you consider that to be normal or abnormal in the whole picture?

    Like, how it's not an expectation that she will IMMEDIATELY love her child, but then people are asking her why she isn't bonding with her child and she feels (as you put it) bad about not feeling a bond.

    If she feels bad or guilty about being unable to experience something that everyone says a "natural" mother should be experiencing - the very idea that people are asking WHY she is NOT experiencing this - does this indicate that inability to bond at childbirth is normal or abnormal?

    I know many adoptees would say it's abnormal because the mother is supposed to bond with the child while the baby is in-utero. Then we have folks to say "well maybe it should, but it doesn't, so we shouldn't expect that it will."

    There's the key word: "Supposed" to. Does it work in the hypothetical scenario above where it is indicated that if the woman does not feel the all-encompassing love that there is indeed something "wrong" with her so she could not bond properly?

    You say the bond is a myth - merely a fairy tale.

    Let's take adoption out of the picture. No genetic removal. No baby being handed to a new mother. If adoption did not exist and babies were not "exchanged" for new mothers in what used to be the mindset of "tabula rasa", would you believe that people should not "expect" a mother will/can bond with her child?

    (Eg. If you take any woman, perhaps a friendly neighbour, who has recently given birth - with the adoption premise at hand, your argument would be that "Some mothers do bond, others do not, and we should not expect them to feel as though they SHOULD bond just because that is what society expects.

    Put adoption back in. Does that affect the way you view the mother & child bonding/unbonding experience in either adoption or a non-adoption situation?

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  11. I guess I would have to answer that I don't think it's abnormal, just unfortunate for both mom and baby.

    No, I do not think that the very idea that people are asking WHY she is NOT experiencing indicates that inability to bond at childbirth is normal or abnormal. I think it indicates there is a myth and destructive expectations surrounding childbirth and is the type of judgment that perpetuates the myth.

    You may have missed the posts where I tried to address postpartum depression and the myth of instant bonding for some mothers which is interesting because I wrote them because of something you said on another blog.

    http://campbellscoup.blogspot.com/2010/05/backward-insight-and-empirical-evidence.html

    http://campbellscoup.blogspot.com/2010/05/to-be-more-clear.html

    I don't think that any of this is directly related to adoption. We're discussing this because because in discussing adoption you tend to romanticize pregnancy, giving birth, and motherhood and in one of our conversations here on my blog http://campbellscoup.blogspot.com/2010/04/enough-already.html I attempted to address that.

    I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say about arguing for one perspective in the case of adoption and against the same idea where adoption doesn't happen at all.

    I think bonding issues and adoption are quite separate for the most part. I do not think that even in the most perfect circumstance giving birth will necessarily magically make a woman want to raise a baby she doesn't want to raise. It could though. Seeing another human being one created from their own flesh is a powerful thing, but it's not always a positive experience.

    I am no expert on any of this, so I feel foolish discussing it in such depth. I also feel a little foolish discussing it because I don't think you'll really try and read what I'm saying. That for you it's a debate, which is fine, but in my mind it's not really debatable because abnormal or unnatural (as you put it) postpartum experiences are a tragic fact for some women.

    If it were accepted as normal or natural it would remove the stigma and therefore potentially lessen the trauma to baby and mom.


    Oh yeah, and this?

    "I know many adoptees would say it's abnormal because the mother is supposed to bond with the child while the baby is in-utero."

    You may want to reexamine your sources of information.

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